The editorial (excerpts below) from the Seattle Times reveals an extraordinary lack of understanding by the Times .. and our legislators .. of the difference between a diploma and an education.
Western Governors “carries the same level of accreditation as Stanford University and other institutions. It has 20,000 students nationwide and more than 50 bachelor’s and master’s degree programs in subjects such as business, health, information technology and teaching.”
Apparently, the Times thinks the only difference between WGU and the UW is “the full deal campus experience.” I suppose that experience must refer to Husky games and beer blasts on frat row?
The idea that WGU has “the same level of accreditation as Stanford” is nonsense. Except for the legislative desire to be able to award diplomas, WGU does not have the faculty or the “online” courseware needed to qualify as one of our community colleges, much less a full “university.” Does the Times really believe that any responsible employer would accept a WGU “masters” degree as the equivalent of a BA from Whitman, UW Tacoma, Seattle U, Pacific Lutheran, Evergreen .. or any other “real college” in our state?
Husky football games and beer blasts aside, WGU differs from any “real” university in another way, it is pass fail. What WGU calls “competency” means replacing all grades with “pass fail” and with a tutor system intended to optimize a student’s chances of passing the exam. This must seem like a great idea mto legislators who claim to worry that our high schools now are teaching to the test rather than preparing kids for jobs.
Anyone here want hire a WGU grad who “passed” their nursing course?
WGU also creates a huge threat to the public schools. By this slight of hand, our legislators have circumvented Washington’s standards for high school teachers. WGU proudly claims to accredit high school teachers while not offering math beyond what our “real” colleges consider remedial algebra, without offering writing instruction, without offering lab work in the sciences, etc. etc. Would the Times recommend that the Seattle public Schools hire a WGU graduate to teach history at Roosevelt?
As for the Times’ concern with for profit online schools defrauding students .. at $6000/yr WGU is twice as expensive as our state community colleges and about as expensive as any of our highly ranked state colleges … all of which offer online coursework and an evaluation system that is a lot more valuable than pass fail grades.
from Seattle Times Editorial Page: excerpted
The reality is Washington does not have enough room at its four-year universities for all of the students seeking bachelor’s degree. The University of Washington and other schools are saying no to top students. Simultaneously, a shifting economy makes a college degree a necessity.
Students with limited options tend to be vulnerable to predatory for-profit schools and offers of quick degrees online. WGU offers a welcome shift with a smart learning model based on competency and one-on-one coaching, guidance and support.
A new agreement with Washington’s community colleges will make it easier for graduates to transfer credits and offers them a 5 percent tuition discount
There is no threat to bricks-and-mortar institutions. There will always be students who prefer the full-meal deal of a campus experience. But for students juggling work, family and other responsibilities, WGU-Washington offers an option with similar academic quality and rigor.
> Anyone here want hire a WGU grad who “passed” their nursing course?
Or education classes…
I’m reminded of the slogan: “Fast, Cheap, Good: pick 2.”
Yeh!
Hell I do not mind cheap .. if that means good. I have been trying for months to get WGU to give me any data on their graduates usccess rates in graduation, further matriculation or jobs.
Nada.
As I read your report something about it seemed vaguely familiar and it finally dawned on me -it is nearly identical to the kind of rhetoric voiced when Evergreen State College was founded. And as an Evergreen grad myself, I found it particularly amusing that you declared Evergreen a “real college” when compared to WGU. That kind of acknowlegement has been years in the making as TESC faced ridicule from academia and the public. Back then,the proposal for a college that didn’t issue letter grades (they use narrative self-and faculty evaluations); didn’t have ‘majors’ for their baccalaureate degrees(students take ‘programs of study’); and didn’t use faculty lecture as the teaching model (student-led seminars replace lectures)was considered radical, not innovative. Everything about TESC was challenged and it was commonly referred to as the “hippy college.” The educational establishment predicted that graduates wouldn’t learn what they needed to learn to be successful in the workplace and in society. They scoffed at the idea that students could assess their own learning and they worried about the educational quality of a model unlike anything they were familiar with. TESC is now a highly respected institution ranked among the nations top liberal arts colleges. It is recognized for producing graduates who are innovative, critical thinking, problem solving and socially conscientious. My point is that just because WGU is based on an alternative model of teaching and assigning credit, that does not make it inferior. RE the accreditation issue: it is my understanding that WGU is accredited by NWCCU, a regional accrediting body that ensures the quality of all colleges and universities in the NW region, i.e., UW, despite its status as a top research institution, has exactly the same accreditation as any of the states’ degree granting institutions. If you agree that the peer review process of accreditation is sound, it follows that WGU, an institution accredited by NWCCU, is an institution that provides quality education.
I am not sure if WGU, but I graduated from a famous Indian university in Maths as external candidate. Has been working in IT for 20 years (13 years in USA), currently serving as a senior executive. I have had the opportunity to work with several IT and non-IT business colleagues at all levels, managing several of the staff members. My observation was that the candidates studied from B&M schools lack creativity and problem solving skills than the experienced or non-traditional educted ones (in many cases, not all). They are more like programmed robots in their thinking and approach, which makes me think twice during the interview process. Corporates need problem solvers, not the run-of-the-mill well tought book-worms. I would prefer someone with experience and have non-traditional degree WGU as t reflecets their experience and also passion for improvement by strengthening the science behind the art. B&M schools tought & produced by run-of-the-mill professors and schools offer relatively less help to corporate stockholders and stakeholders, in my experience.
Vasu … what is a a “B&M”? I am guessing you mean tradtional US colleges?
I think you miss the point about WGU. Yes it does offer a way for people with on the job training to get a “diploma” but WGU is still a ripoff.
First, there very inexpensive ways to get credit for what you have done and have access to alot more than WGU offers. Our state higher ed system already offers these options. Second, despite its BS, WGU is VERY expensive. I looked into getting the credentials to teach high school biology by playing a biology major who dropped out, went into the military, worked as a medic, then left and worked on tech jobs where I gained other skills .. largely in computers. The cost at WGU for a bachelors and masters was pver $24,000! I know of one student who did just this at the UW for a lot less.
Second, it seems to me that YOU need better criteria for your HR folks. If adding a WGU diploma trumps real accomplishments, there is something wrong in your company’s hiring process.
Third. what makes ytou think that WGU’s online courses enhance an applicant’s preparation to work for you? Have you looked at graduates from UW Comp Sci (?if your company is good enough to attract them?). I know a LOT of our students in Comp Sci and EE get realworeld experience both in their projects and in jobs.
Some students may be unaware that they can earn credit for prior learning much more cheaply through Washington state community and technical colleges (CTCs) than through WGU. Students also do not have to jump through WGU’s online hoops or spend time taking WGU’s online “courses” to earn such credit.
Washington CTCs offer “Credit By Examination” as well as what is called “Credit for Prior Experiential Learning” to anyone who can show through an exam or a portfolio that they have college-level skills and knowledge that they can apply toward college-level courses.
At least until the rates go up again, the tuition for 5 credits at a community college for an in-state domestic student is less than $500 (and it’s considerably less for eligible military veterans).
Credits earned through examination or through another demonstration of skills and knowledge may be transferable to baccalaureate institutions that accept the student after he or she earns a community college degree or certificate. (Transfer policies at baccalaureate institutions vary widely, and many of them may not accept WGU credits, which are also essentially credit by exam).
There are no contracts to sign, no gimmicks, no recruiters, and no pressure to complete entire degrees or programs at CTCs. Students who can demonstrate their skills and knowledge and pay the applicable tuition and fees get the credits.
A student can get credit for a course by examination. A student who has been working in IT, for instance, could try to test out of a Math or Computer Science course without having to sit through the class.
A student can also earn what is called “Credit for Prior Experiential Learning” in a wide variety of disciplines. The policy at the college where I teach specifically recognizes “that students may learn college-level knowledge and skills in a variety of situations: employment, military experiences, internships, externships, independent research, volunteer or civic work, certifications, licensure experiences and training, and college courses not previously transcripted.”
There is no good reason for students to pay higher tuition and fees to WGU to earn college credits for what they already know, when credit for prior learning is offered through Washington’s community and technical colleges.
I would say that what is at issue here are the phrases “learning model” and “similar academic quality and rigor”. I do not believe that WGU has either. They do not even have a learning model, let alone quality or rigor, because they do not have teachers. Instead, they charge premium prices for what are essentially self-study materials for certification exams and a customer support line. To me, what they are doing is taking advantage of people who deserve better.
Speaking of Learning, you didn’t do your homework. WGU offers courses not only in College Algebra, but also in Trigonometry, Geometry, Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Abstract Algebra. Their Math program is more thorough than the brick aned mortar university I attended–my last course being Linear Algebra. All WGU students in the Teacher’s program must pass the Praxis, or do you have a problem with its validity as well?
Call me incredulous.
I have looked through the WGU curriculum and never saw the courses you claim they teach. Show me where in the WGU catalog there is a course in linear algebra that covers matrices and vectors??? A colleague who is familiar with the coursewares WGU uses tells me that the “calculus” course is practical wihtut teaching the fiundamental theorem or giving students the tools to derive derivitives and integrals.
As to whether your dismissive comments about buildings and mortar, I have nothing against online learning. I have taught that way myself. WGU does not actually claim to be online, e.g it does offer supervised teaching experiences,.however, other than that experience, WGU makes the claim to be able to teach very difficult material while not providing facuolty with subject matter expertise to oversee what is being learned and help students through difficult material.
Would you trust a nurse who studied pathology on her own and then tooks a pass fail “mastery” exam? For that matter would you want your car fixed by a mechanic who had gotten her skills that way?
Finally, your point about the Praxis seems to be asking whether I think these tests are agood measure of how prepared a teacher is to teachg hiugh school level content. What do you think?
Unfortunately before I understood how valuable an education was, I was past the point where I could drop everything and go to school. I have sporadically attended traditional brick and mortar institutions but had difficulty working 50 plus hours a week, going to school and raising a family. I have been able to rise to a management position without a degree but it took longer and I have had to prove myself my entire career. Everyone that works for me has a bachelors or higher.
I have been going to WGU for a little more than a year now and at my current rate should graduate with my B.S. in Business Administration in another 1.5 years with a total cost of 15,000 dollars including books. My son is going to the local community college and will pay approximately 8000 dollars plus books for a two year degree in computer science. He is a very good student but would find WGU to difficult because it is tailored to working adults with some college.
At WGU there are easy, difficult and in-between courses. I have taken similar courses at other traditional schools I have attended. The advantage to WGU is I get to attend class at 6:00 am in the morning or my lunch break or late at night… It is completely up to me. They are fully accredited (regionally and nationally) whichis the standard as to whether it was safe for an employer to trust the person has a college level education. I know who they are, the accreditation agencies, that is. I however have no idea who you are or what makes you more qualified than those responsible for accreditation, Time Magazine or NBC News to judge quality.
Someone mentioned graduation rates. WGU is not very proud of the number, I will grant you that. I heard it’s only around 23%. I find it interesting that WGU is criticized for being too easy and too hard to graduate from. People assume that it’s going to be easy and then it turns out to be difficult. I am the only one holding myself accountable to finish. I do not have to look a professor in the eye if I don’t do an assignment. Fact is, if you are competent in a subject you can test out in a matter of days in most cases. If you are not competent it will require work. If I knew everything, I could graduate from WGU in weeks; I obviously don’t so it looks like it will take me 2.5 years. Oh and that 2.5 years is with no breaks either, no summers off.
I have yet to have a problem in any class that I cannot talk to a professor on staff about. Everyone seems to have a firm grasp on the material I have been assigned. My personal mentor just took several weeks off to work on his doctorate. (WGU doesn’t offer doctorates BTW).
Finally, I am a 45 year old professional man. I do not need the same instruction style as someone right out of high school. I reject the notion that the only acceptable path for education is being lectured to in person. I do not need my hand held. WGU is my path and it is a good one. Don’t hire me if I ever apply wherever you work, you sound narrow minded and I don’t think deserve me.
I know I’m responding to a very old post but as a WGU student I’d like to respond with my experience and insight.
For me WGU has been a huge boon. I’ve worked in finance and economic business analysis for more than a decade. I work at the top of my game, am very good at what I do. Like a previous commenter my peers & subordinates all have MBAs. I have a GED. This disparity severely limits my upward mobility, as well as my career portability (I can’t get an interview at a different company unless I’ve personally worked with someone on the hiring team because without a diploma on my resume I wont get passed from HR to the hiring manager).
As a student who has attended both traditional brick and mortar schools and WGU I must disagree with your assertion that there are many ways to leverage outside experience to expedite progress at a traditional school. Most universities will not accept CLEP examinations for any upper division material and have a cap on the maximum number of CLEP credits they will accept, and furthermore require that at least a specific percentage of work be completed at that school.
For me the biggest frustration with traditional schools, and the biggest liberating factor for me at WGU was the elimination of time dependence of courses. What I mean by that is courses being bound to a traditional quarter or semester time block. If on day 1 I know 90% of the material for a course, I can’t stomach sitting through 12 weeks of review, rehash, and busywork just to get to the exam. At WGU if I can prove I know the material through passing the preliminary examination well above the minimum score on the final I am able to immediately move forward to the final. Likewise if I can complete the required projects for the course in a way that meets the course standards that course is complete and I am free to move on to the next course immediately. This has prevented me from becoming frustrated and disenfranchised with the education process, throwing my hands up and walking away furious.
This has allowed me to earn 52 competency units in the last 4 weeks by demonstrating knowledge I already had. Did I learn anything new? No I did not. Was I held to the same standard as a student finishing a similar course at a traditional school? Yes I believe I was.
For ten years I’ve worked 50+ hours per week, several years as a manager supervising a team of direct reports, in the field my degree will supposedly qualify me for an entry level position in. I don’t have 20+ hours per week and $48,000 for the next four years to end up exactly where I am now plus a piece of paper.
As of right now I’m on track to finish my BS in Business Management in 12 weeks, at a total cost of $3,035 including tuition, books, and fees. Does the average student graduate that quickly? No, they don’t. Student takes as long as is needed to finish the coursework to the satisfaction of the evaluators, whose standards are dictated by a board of experience professionals working in the field of study.
WGU requires a self-disciplined, self-motivated learner, capable learner. If you need your hand held, this is not the school for you.
I heartily recommend WGU for any professionals working in their field who need degrees to further their careers.
To the aveeditor: you said, would you hire a self taught nurse who passed assignments and exams with a pass. Some of the worlds greatest inventors, artists and musicians were self taught, ie Mozart, Einstein, Davinci. I suppose you would not want to be taught by any of these people.
I am a recent grad of WGU in thier post bacc teachers prep program. I was able to accomplish this in 18 months, pregnant and having the baby. I can tell you it was not easy peasy and not so hard I gave up. I had access to course mentors in each course I took if needed, all of which were very knowledgable in the subject. All had higher level degrees or current or past educators themselves.
All of the work you turn in is graded on a rubric scale of 1-4 just like a gpa scale. If any of your work receives a 2 in any area of the rubric you must revise your assignment. WGU will not pass you unless you are meeting a 3.0 average acrosse the board, that means nothing less than a 3, no Cs.
Now I ask you what’s the difference between a doctor that graduated with all As and Bs in his anatomy and medical courses and one who recieved Cs and Ds. Yep theyre still doctors, so which is more knowledgeable.
My host teacher praised my abilities and knowledge in education. I was informed that I started at a level much higher than other student teachers from the B&M university and was one of two of the best she had in her classroom. I also passes all of my Praxis and pedagogy exams on the first go.
I am a Registered Nurse. I got the degree that made me eligible for the NCLEX exam at a traditional brick and mortar college, and one of the oldest nursing programs in the country. Nursing courses are all pass/fail. The NCLEX exam is pass/fail. Some schools grade by a literal pass or fail ‘grade’. Most schools have minimum grades to ‘pass’, which effectively makes the course pass/fail. All clinical work is pass/fail. If you have ever been treated by a nurse, both their degree and NCLEX exam were pass/fail. So yes, you would like to be treated by a nurse who went to a pass/fail school, or you wont be treated by a nurse at all.
I am not defending WGU or commenting on the rigor of their coursework, nor can I speak to anything outside nursing education. I can say they must have satisfactory NCLEX exam pass rates, above at least 80%, or they would have already lost their license to teach nursing courses. All colleges that teach nursing courses teach to the NCLEX exam, they are supposed to. Nursing education is designed to teach to a minimum knowledge set, which you are then expected to demonstrate by taking an adaptive test, the same adaptive test all nursing candidates take anywhere in the country.
http://www.wgu.edu/about_WGU/graduate_success